Book Club Discussion: A God who both transcends and inhabits all pronouns

How would you respond if, for just one Sunday, your pastor consistently referred to God as “Them” throughout his sermon? (“For They so loved the world,” “Surrender your life to Them,” etc.) And what if the words to your favorite hymn were changed on the overhead to read “to God be the glory great things She hath done!” Do you think this would enhance or distract you from your worship? Would it help you think about God outside of the box, or simply place Him/Her into another one?

I pose the question because I think that William P. Young does an excellent job of messing with common perceptions of God’s nature in his book The Shack. When Young’s protagonist, Mackenzie, encounters God in the shack, he experiences God as both male and female in the form of the Trinity. Rather than interacting with a single male father-figure, Mackenzie interacts with 1) Papa (a big black woman who represents God the Father), 2) Jesus (an ordinary-looking Jewish man who obviously represents Christ), and 3) Sarayu (an ethereal female presence who represents the Holy Spirit).

When Mackenzie puzzles at these unexpected incarnations, Papa, responds, “Mackenzie, I am neither male nor female, even though both genders are derived from my nature. If I choose to appear to you as a man or woman, it’s because I love you. For me to appear to you as a woman and suggest that you call me Papa is simply to mix metaphors, to help you keep from falling so easily back into your religious conditioning…To reveal myself to you as a very large, white grandfather figure with flowing beard, like Gandalf, would simply reinforce your religious stereotypes, and this weekend is not about reinforcing your religious stereotypes.”

I love that Young portrays God in this way, particularly for Mackenzie, a character who struggles with bad memories of his earthly father. I also loved the constant reminder of the existence of the Trinity. I sometimes feel like The Holy Spirit gets neglected a bit when we talk about God, and I welcomed the reminder of His/Her presence.

It reminds me of how, when Moses asked for God’s name, God responded “I AM who I AM…Tell the Israelites you were sent by ‘I AM,’ the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

Sometimes I think we need reminders that God is not who we expect Him/Her to be, that He/She is wholly other,  both transcending and inhabiting our pronouns. It’s not about being politically correct; it’s about confronting the ways in which we have made God in our image.  For that reason, I don’t think it would hurt to spend a Sunday or two reflecting a bit on the mysterious nature of our God - Her goodness and mercy, Their holiness and might.


kathyescobar
Comment
Re: Book Club Discussion: A God who both transcends and inhabits all pronouns
Reply #1 on : Mon April 14, 2008, 11:17:51
hey rachel, thanks for this post. we have done in several different ways conversations around this topic and it is always the most interesting conversation! but we've never pressed it out into worship songs and so you are presenting a good challenge. maybe we'll give it a try! it is such a beautiful conversation--the bigness of God and how limiting our little boxes are. personally, i think we all need more and more heart and mind-bending. i read the shack too and appreciated the thoughts about how somehow we are missing the power and beauty of the trinity relationship...
Mitch
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Christ our example
Reply #2 on : Tue April 15, 2008, 18:40:33
Jesus prayed, "Our Father which art in Heaven" so I think I'll stick with that :)
Gerianne
Comment
Re: Book Club Discussion: A God who both transcends and inhabits all pronouns
Reply #3 on : Tue April 15, 2008, 22:16:27
I think we all believe that God is a spirit, whose human incarnation (Jesus) is male. According to Revelation, Jesus still has a body and always will have because of His decision to become human. God can do all things, but being both sexes at once seems a little strange.

As a matter of interest though, if God were feminine, that would make Her relationship with Mary homosexual, which goes against everything God ever said about sex. It would also make it unnecessary, since God could have given birth Herself - though She would maybe have needed a human father, which really makes a mess of the whole story. I'm with Mitch on this one.
kristen
Comment
Re: Book Club Discussion: A God who both transcends and inhabits all pronouns
Reply #4 on : Wed April 16, 2008, 09:35:06
i think the last two comments missed the point just a little bit. it isn't about deciding if God is masculine or feminine. the point that is being made in the shack (though i take this from rachel's comments--i have not read it) is to remind us that God is outside of our finite conceptions. this is the very reason there are no decent metaphors for the Trinity. God is in many ways beyond our comprehension and to force that being into defined concepts of biological sex could be limiting our knowledge/experience/interaction with the Trinity.

does not the Bible also say something like God will be "all things to all people"?--how can we exclude a feminine presence that may reach certain minds in a better way?--especially for those individuals who have been abused in some way by males?
Rachel H. Evans
Comment
Trinity
Reply #5 on : Wed April 16, 2008, 10:14:07
Good thoughts about the Trinity, Kristen. Try as they may, no one has ever come up with a "perfect" metaphor to explain it.
Mitch
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Christ Our Example
Reply #6 on : Wed April 16, 2008, 19:33:06
I agree that God is beyond what we can fully comprehend. But that doesn't mean we can't comprehend what he has revealed. We can know truly about God even though we can not fully know about God. However, to say that "to force that being into defined concepts of biological sex could be limiting our knowledge/experience/interatction with the Trinity" is to say that Jesus did that. If Jesus did that and taught us as our pattern in prayer to pray "Our Father . . ." then I don't believe it will limit our understanding of God to follow Christ example and teaching in this area.

I'd also like to know what the reference is for the quote "all things to all people". Paul said that as his philosophy about evangelizing people but he clearly didn't mean he would become a woman or committing evil acts or any number of other things to reach people. Are you referring to another reference in scripture?

My point is that God the Father revealed himself as a male character and Jesus came as a man. I'm not going to take it upon myself to change this clear teaching in scripture because I think I've got a better way to understand God. He is above me, He made me, and I will give account to Him someday. In light of that, I don't think I'll criticize the way He chose to reveal Himself to the world.
Rachel Dyer
Comment
Inhabiting all pronouns
Reply #7 on : Mon April 21, 2008, 22:25:58
I've been in some circles where "inclusive" language is used and God is referred to using female pronouns - it often jars with me, but has led me to further thinking about who God is - it challenges me to think beyond my often simplistic definition of who God is and reminds me that I can never fully understand or grasp His (yup, the male pronouns come easier to me!) character.

I think that when we merely focus on God as Father then it limits our revelation of who He is. Whenever I think of what a father is, I draw a lot on my own experience - the real knowing comes not from recognizing the right words but from experiencing what they mean. And too often our earthly experiences are pale reflections at best of the heavenly - it's part of being human!

There are sections of the bible where the characteristics of God are referred to using feminine terms - does that mean that God is female? That's not the conclusion I draw - but rather that the fullness of who God is, captures more than just the traits associated with a male father figure/pronouns.

And Genesis starts with "God created human beings in his own image; in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." 1:27, REB. Maybe we need to be careful that the terms we use to describe God don't box Him in to our pre-conceived definitions of gender.

And maybe as Paul talks in Corinthians about "becoming all things to all men to win them to Christ", we should be sensitive to those who come with terrible experiences of what a father is (or even male figures in general) and use the fullness of the language we have to describe our amazing God.
kristen
Comment
Re: Book Club Discussion: A God who both transcends and inhabits all pronouns
Reply #8 on : Thu May 01, 2008, 16:06:24
thanks, rachel for clarifying for me. that's just what i meant! :)

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